Tent of Many Voices: 06120604

good afternoon ladies and gentlemen welcome to the tent of many voices this tent is part of a traveling exhibit that has been following the Lewis and Clark Trail since January of 2003 most of you have been here before and you know that we are a traveling exhibit following the trail and we're delighted to be here and thank you very much for inviting us we do have program schedules out on the back of our Sandwich Board and we also have some schedules for the event that's going on the uh get our program schedule up here a summer of peace with the new meoo so be sure that you pick these up look at them don't take them as totally correct because these were printed two weeks ago and there's lots of changes if you want the most upto-date schedule our schedule for the T of mini voices is kept on our front desk in the next tent over so stop by there and make sure that the programs you want to see are still on the schedule and update your schedule as well so with that I'd like to thank you all for coming and I'd like to introduce our panelist the program this hour is a visit with William Clark and our speakers Cynthia Black Eagle Alan Pinkham Brian McCormick and Crystal white so let's please make them welcome good afternoon my name is Brian McCormick uh I'm an enrolled member of the nesp tribe I'm also uh a licensed landscape architect I own my own firm here in the valley um I do a lot of work on cultural projects for Indian tribes throughout the Northwest um anyway a few years ago most Americans had never heard of Black Eagle speaking Eagle no horns on his head or rabbit skinned leggings they are the delegation of for n person men that traveled to St Louis Missouri in the fall of 1831 um today we are going to talk about this incredible journey 175 years ago this year that forever changed the course of NES Pur and American history and we're going to start off with Alan Pinkham he's going to give us a little uh background of of first history before 1831 all right thank you Brian uh I just want to set the stage here for some of the events that came you know after lisis and Clark and even prior you know the ners people had lived in this area for since time in Memorial you know that's Way Beyond tribal memory and what this actually means was that we were created right here in this country our creation story is up River at camei the heart of the monster some of you may have seen it but this is the where we were created from the blood and the water and the earth and the light and then uh so this is how we came to be we there's no oral history that says that we came from anywhere else we were always here from the beginning of time when the creation of the Earth was done by the Creator and and so we're here at at at our country this is the country that we were given to live in to to our do our life to live our lives right here in this country along the Snake River the Salmon River the Clearwater River the imaha the Palo River all these drainages where we were and we're still here today and so when these new kinds of people came to us you know we described it and they're coming we this is what we called it this event this coming of the white people or the white man we Soo this is what this term means the coming of these strange people and and they came and how can we not know about how these people came to this Earth You we always knew things and the way we knew things is that we travel this continent this island you know we travel to the north to where the great lake is and where it's cold all year long and we travel to the South where the country is hot all year long and of course we went to the Pacific Ocean a Puget Sound area and there are stories of us traveling there was a nesp man his name was tooma and when you go to puet sound the pet sound people call Mount raner Toom so this is how this Nest purse name was given to him because he was a runner that went between here and the Puget Sound and he' go run by this mountain so he was given that name Toom and this is way before we even acquired the horse and then we'd go east to the great l where the uh red Pipe Stone was and there we would gather the uh Pipe Stone and we'd bring it back and so there was a traveling and a trade system way before 1492 and before we acquired the horse and so so we we knew the country and then one and then to put look at this in a practical sense how could we not not know of a strange kind of people that came in 1492 for 300 years prior to Lis and Clark how could we not know about that if we travel this island we would have found out about these people and there are stories of us traveling there's a story of a man traveling for 20 years and he came back and he he gave us all kinds of stories and I'm sure he would have brought back news about what he had seen and so those are the kind of stories that exist so now we know that these kinds of people exist that in and my father used to tell me we described them before we seen them they would speak a language we never heard before their their eyes would be like fish and um some of them would have their faces on upside down and what that meant was beards and mustache and bald on top so if you fit that description you know who you are and and so these are the kinds of stories that told us that yes we we were here and a new kind of people came and even in a practical sense there were three Nest Pur at Fort Mandan in why were we there we we went there to find out what's going on and so we knew L and Clark were coming we knew more about Lu and Clark than they knew about us and so when we travel like this we they would always bring news back you know what's happening what's going on all these new people they're coming when they come Among Us they will turn our world over and what that meant was that when they come they'll plow the ground and they'll turn it over that's what that means and so these are the kind of stories that would come to us and so when Louis and clar came of course it wasn't a great event like they put on right now you know this Bicentennial you know to us Lis and Clark is a minor incident but as in this great change that was coming and when we seen Louis and Clark wri in their journals well how do they do that how can they transfer knowledge like this and so we said we need to find out how to do that so in 1822 three young Nest purse men were sent to Red River District in Canada to the missionaries up there I believe it was the Jesuits and so we sent them up there two of them died but one came back his name was Ellis and and uh so he learned how to read and write and then the U after L and Clark of course we wanted to find out more because they had the technology that we didn't have the ability to make Glass and Metal and particularly we very interested in in how do you make powder and how do you make the lead balls that that uh shoot the game see we had six muzzle loers when Louis and Clark came to our country here we already had the muzzle Lo but we ran out of powder and ball so how do you find out how to do these things well you treat these guys pretty good so the ultimate decision was not to kill LS and Clark because they had this technical knowledge that we did not have and the ability to read and write and so as things went on after 1822 then it became you know a conflict between two cultures in 1813 the first conflict that we experienced experience with these men in our in our area was down here at the mouth of poo River and Indian was killed by uh one of the traitors so then hostilities started to occur and then they said well how can we prevent us from having all these problems with the traitor and Trappers and and these early settlers that were coming in and so we need we need to go look for the the one that would help us and his name happened to be William Clark of the Luen Clark expedition so now we were trying to solve our problem so we went to St Louis in 1831 and the names of these men are were just given to you so so this is the stage this is the beginning of this great change that's coming to us we knew that these this was going to happen because the prophecies or the foretelling of these events were brought back I can imagine by the men and those family groups that traveled out to the Great Plains and passed to and then to the Southwest where we found another kind of human being that wore hats and they wore little blankets and they call themselves Spanish so so these things are the things that were setting up this trip of 183 1 and and that's why this committee is here and I'd like to pass the microphone on to someone else here thank you the four Nest Pur Warriors traveled from present day Idaho to St Louis in 1831 an expedition very similar to that of marwe Lewis and William Clark 25 years earlier when the nest Pur arrived in St Louis they s out General William Clark then the superintendent of Indian Affairs for the Missouri River Country and the Pacific Northwest in mid- October 1831 the party arrived in St Louis Bishop Rosati wrote a detailed if very biased account of their stay on December 31st 1831 several other colorful accounts have been given regarding the delegation stay in St Louis however the underlying concept was that these four warriors were there to ask that the people of St Louis give them something connected with religion and more importantly education nobody in St Louis spoke the nesp language and th all communication was done via sign language therefore the people of St Louis could not completely understand the specifics of the npers request having been exposed to new ailments and lacking immunization the Elder two Warriors Black Eagle and speaking Eagle also known as man of the morning sickened died and were buried a few weeks after their arrival in St Louis prior to their deaths both were given Catholic rights and were buried in the Catholic Cemetery their remains were relocated several times and were finally laid to rest in a then unmarked Mass grave at Calvary Cemetery after the deaths of Black Eagle and speaking Eagle nor horns on his head and rabbit skin leggings dropped from sight on March 26th 1832 they left on the steamer Yellowstone an American Fur Company boat they met up with George Catlin who painted them while aboard ship according to an account by Catlin no horns on his head succumbed to disease soon following the Yellowstone's arrival at Fort Union rabbit skin leggings was left to return home alone he crossed the Montana Plains and met up with finess purse at a camp in the Buffalo country later that fall he was killed in a fight with the black feet on the headwaters of the Salmon River while rabbit skin leggings did not return with teachers in toe this one event was a catalyst sparking the missionary movement in the west while the reason for the journey is debated even today this remarkable undertaking forever changed the face of Western history thank you Crystal what I'm going to talk about is we installed a monument in St Louis a few years ago and I'm going to talk a little bit about the history of that monument and the committee um in April 2001 Crystal here presented a proposal to an audience at the NP National Historical Park in Spalding to to create a monument in St Louis to honor the for Nets Pur men after the lecture many nesp tribal members including some of the descendants came together to form a committee too far away okay there we go um and here's a picture of our committee members there the goal of this this new committee was to assist crystal in writing grants fundraising planning and design of prop the proposed ners Monument the actual Monument is about 8 ft tall it's made of granite it is symbolizing two eagle feathers and it's on a base and on that base we had uh the text written approximately 2/3 of the cost was covered by several grants it was about $42,000 to build this thing the were B third of the project the money was raised through t-shirt and program sales private and church group donations raffle proceeds and some money from the nesp tribe uh the committee spent several months writing and editing the text that would wrap around the granite base there are four distinct panels facing the cardinal directions that each deliver a different message the first one names the four Warriors including their first names the second one here is a tribute to all the unknown people that share the mass grave with the two Warriors the third panel tells the story of the four nesp Warriors including several possible explanations of why they travel to St Louis which is what you heard about earlier and then the fourth panel is a personal tribute from all the nest Pur to honor their four ancestors two of which are buried at the site in conjunction with the uh unveiling of our Monument there was a the committee held a local ceremony at Spalding after that ceremony we went over to uh St Louis Missouri in March of 2003 the Missouri Historical Society hosted a colloquium titled conversations with the NES purse several NES Pur Flathead and sailor descendant were invited to speak as well as local historians following the lectures we also served lunch in the museum and the nest purse quickly got dressed in the regalia and demonstrated some of our traditional songs and dances there was a huge crowd there including many children from the local schools throughout the month of March there was also an exhibit at the museum that featured many personal items from tribal members including some of their bead work in their Cornus bags the next day the unveiling of the granic monument took place at Calvary Cemetery which is a huge Cemetery outside of St Louis uh we open the dedication with the Lord's Prayer which you can see here which was spoken in English and it was signed by n first descendants using Indian sign language the local newspaper in St Louis estimated there were about 75 nesters descendants that traveled to St Louis for a ceremony along with about 150 people from throughout St Louis and Beyond several dignitaries were also there to honor the foress purse currently we're our committee is trying to build a monument here in our area so people will be able to read about the story uh we were awarded a challenge casare grant for the National Park Service and we we're going to be doing a local Monument up at CI at the tribal W Center uh we're probably going to start that maybe next month after we get all the paperwork signed at the park service so hopefully hopefully by the end of the year we'll get this Monument done we're going to do some interpretive signs and a native plant garden and what we're hoping to do is hopefully have a series of interpretive signs on tribal lands that can tell our own history for visitors to see uh right now I'd like Cynthia to talk about some of her perspectives of the events and her family's uh comments about this whole process good afternoon I'm Cynthia Black Eagle I have one daughter Shannon and one grandson Lorenzo I don't want to boast but Black Eagle he's one of my ancestors on my father's side and on my other side is speaking Eagle but my famous warrior is no horns on his head um we have so much Rich history among the npers that it's so wonderful to know that they were impelled to venture out to know that the world was changing before us and we needed to educate ourselves we knew that was the most important thing is to seek education in order to survive and we have a lot of uh college graduates and even doctors among our nespor people which I'm very proud of too and honored to know that They too had had dreams and visions that would uh benefit our people in our survival in the New World today we have um doctors that um physical Doctors medical doctors that uh are competing in the world and eventually wel allc come back to our people and I feel that this is one of the first steps that our people can take is to you know start take taking care of our own people and it shows how we survived along the rivers that we took care of our own people through the medicines that we that was handed down to us from our grandparents and great-grandparents we drove to um St Louis and we could not help but wonder and think you know these Warriors leaving their homes venturing out not having any idea whatsoever what is before them but that strength in their hearts was so amazing that um they wanted to make a difference for their people and to do that you would have to go out our people walked distances but that's quite a Way St Louis is a long way about 1700 miles about 2,000 mil away from here and as we were cruising over there you couldn't help but notice all the casinos I didn't get very lucky but uh all the casinos that were uh that we've seen was probably a dream away as they were journeying over to St Louis and it was so um amazing to see the people that gathered there toh help us celebrate the Warriors did make make it but it's on our way back that we lost lost two Black Eagle and speaking eagle and what was in their hearts at the time you know that uh whatever they were seeking and felt was that achieved before their dad or did they ever fulfill their dreams and Passions to make that Journey over it was almost like it was a spirit filled ceremony because we sang a very old song that is still that we still sing today and it's called The Journey song If there was only two of you here I would sing it but I'm kind of I don't like mics and have stage fright but it was a powerful song that one of our elders led us in which even you know our people were very they had spirituality and that was part of their lives and it still lives today here within our nous people the opportunity was quite an honor to know that we had Valiant Warriors that were ready for this change and wanted to make a difference for their people and if it meant traveling that far it has opened the doors for a lot of our people to go and get that education now I feel that they were victorious Warriors because we are known as the real real people the namu meaning n Pur I appreciate everyone I'm here this afternoon and if you do have any questions there's a lot of knowledge up here that we can share about the four Warriors that um made the journey and were successful thank you wonderful we do have a question right here why don't we start with it uh the tradition has been uh among many people that uh the Warriors went to St Louis to get the book of heaven and that's been written for a long long time and I was wondering why the uh uh why the uh reason for going to St Louis has not been that I mean since most people have uh have known or for a long long time had the idea that they went to Lis to get the book of Heaven which was the book that the Lewis and Clark had okay all right Alan uh I I'll answer the question you know there is there is controversy among the npers that did we go for the Bible or did we go for some other kind of book or did we go to see William Clark to complain about those things that were occurring to us you know after 1813 and uh there is a little bit of Doubt here but then from my perspective from my family particularly my father he always told me we never went to St Louis looking for the Bible it just wasn't you know it didn't occur that way there there's a lot of speculation that the the uh Indian sign language for the book is like opening the page of a book you know when you lay it out you open it up this way well no understood n person St Louis you know so we would use sign language and then the book you know like you open the book well the missionaries got a hold of this and says oh these poor Savages are looking for the Bible it really wasn't that you know according to my oral history that I received it was never looking for the Bible but but the book is the Book of Knowledge and so if the Bible is considered a book of knowledge then it becomes part of what we were seeking and from the Bible of course comes a great deal of knowledge but then the technology of the day is how do you learn how to do the things that we don't have and possess see that's another aspect Lo Clark said that yeah we'll send you Traders and you'll you'll be able to come and get some of these Goods when we send these Traders out to you while it never occurred directly lot a lot of the Traders came down from Canada they were not United States and there were some uh coming in from United States and we called them Boston because that's where they actually came from Boston Boston and but the ultimate decision here is uh we weren't looking for the Bible but what came out of this misunderstanding is the missionaries because there is a letter written by Reverend spaly but I think it's more of a fabrication than a real authentic you know translation of what we really wanted well when when the missionaries heard of they had Reverend Spalding put it down as yes we went to St Louis in 1831 looking for the Bible and and there is this controversy but according to my history we really weren't looking for the Bible it was the technology of the day that's what we really wanted and how do you get lead and powder you know for your uh muscle loaders so that's what we really were looking for I have a question uh regarding um William Clark's letter that is in the M the Missour historical society and he's complaining about all the tribes that are coming out of the mountains um because it wasn't just the nest Pur who sent delegates to to St Louis a number of tribes were doing this because he was the head of the Indian office and I'm I'm going to paraphrase but who's saying something like you know uh why why are they coming to see me as if I have anything to do with their Affairs as if I can solve their problems and you know forgetting that he had promised uh peace and friendship and um I guess if you could elaborate on that and then um I know you've mentioned before about you know we felt um that there was other reasons that we would have it in well with the United States and yet we were having all this this murder taking place so if you could elaborate on that oh yeah it's true there there's some uh William Clark letters that he had sent to someone and uh he would in one of the letters that he sent to probably one of his superiors in Washington DC he says the Indians are coming to St Louis to complain of their problems to me and the nesp one all he said about nesp is the ones that we had previously met among the the Rocky Mountains so that he implied that it was us in 1831 but then the iroise and some of the Eastern tribes are also bringing back problems to him and St Louis because the Eastern tribal people are being dispossessed and relocated and pushed West because of the settlement coming Westward so he was not only getting complaints from the Midwest and Western tribes he was also getting complaints from the Eastern tribes because they were suffering just as much as we were particularly from the epidemics also uh so the epidemics at the time measles and small poox were wiping out populations of tribal people very it was a very big impact and so there was a lot of complaints and uh William Clark being the uh agent Indian agent of the time you know and from about 1820 up to about 1840 I believe uh he received all these complaints and so he was I'm sure he was probably inundated with all kinds of complaints because it just wasn't happening to Northwest tribes it was also happening to the Eastern tribe of people as well so and and then of course the missionary is taking up the Bible and says well we need to go out and and uh give the enlightenment to these Heathen people and of course this is what Reverend Spalding you know carried that message and and of course others Jason Lee and Whitman and a lot of others did the same too but to different different tribes and so the missionary period was very also very devastating to us because they carried the Bible in one hand and then said well if you follow the book you know you'll be okay and if you don't follow the Bible then you'll go to hell but we there's no Concept in Indian religion or spirituality that there is a hell so so there was a contrast in what they were telling us and of course old Joseph then became very disappointed in what he was hearing from Whitman and spalin and they just argued about religion among themselves so old Joseph renounced Christianity you know just prior to the war of 1877 and but another interesting thing here that occurred is that losen Clark met hak elel who was um redbear and there's a lot of descendants of redbear there's hundreds of us not only the black Eagles and a pums and a Carter and a Corbit you know there's hundreds of us descended from this one man called uh red grizzly bear that met L and Clark in 1806 and also there's a lot of uh descendants from Twisted hair there's about 5 or 600 of those so and these two men are are uh different Twisted hair took up the white man's way and of course his sons did and then redbear played both both sides you know he went to St Louis in the name of Peace but also at some some of the redbear clan took up the Bible as well so you know in my estimation is some of our people took up the Bible to help protect themselves because of The Changing Times and the disposition and disenfranchisement that we're undergoing one way to seek salvation is to go to the Bible and I think many of our people did that so so there's a real contrast here of and others said well no we want to live our own way you know we we we have our own concept of who the Creator is and how we should live and so there's a division among our tribal people in this regard and uh that that came out to be treaty non-treaty and Christian non-Christian uh npers so there was a a dichotomy here and there was a split of how our people wanted to live their lives and and that some of that is still present it's not as bad as it used to be but it's it's still around and uh so so this is the great Changing Times that I was talking about the Bible played a great deal in this changing time some of it good some of it bad just like our propheties prophecies said when these people come Among Us they'll bring bad things and good things to us so that's what's happening we do have time for another couple of questions if any of you have a question that you'd like to ask you do have a wealth of knowledge up here and uh pretty amazing I would like to ask about your Memorial that you're planning and that's going to be in CI and your funding is there do you have your plans what what's your status of your memorial statue for CI what What stages have you gotten to with that uh what we've done so far is we just were notified in April from the park service about The Challenge cost share so we're still working on the contracts for that um after we after we do that we'll probably get started on a design phase and Crystal and I worked on several interpretive projects uh mostly in Oklahoma and Kansas but what we'll do is we have set up an advisory committee that helps us determine what text we're going to talk about and plus our St Louis Warriors committee that's already in in existence will help us determine what we're going to talk about what we've initially thought about is we're going to do two panels we're not going to actually do another Monument like we shown because that was really expensive but what we want to do is more like interpretive panels and on one one of the signs we want to talk about the history of the warrior uh the for Ness Pur Warriors that went over there and then on the other panel we want to actually talk about the monument and everything that's happened over in St Louis since we built that thing that Monument has become very popular and Almost Famous at St Louis um that cemetery is very popular uh I guess they do tours through there and it's become like their number one stop on their tour through the cemetery so but in in conjunction with this uh project in C we also want to do a a n nesters native plant garden just to highlight some of our traditional plants we're not going to really talk about their uses but I think we just so we can do some uh future interpretive sites up there at CI so there's really a lack of interpretation from a tribal perspective just throughout our reservation so we want to start with that project there awesome a couple of questions let's take those real quickly just thought of a good idea Brian why don't you get those tour guides in St Louis to charge an extra buck and they can U get you some money for another Nifty monument in CI to add to your interpreter signs there's an awful lot of people over there that you know would probably donate something yeah that's probably true I mean it's actually even won some awards um Crystal maybe we talk about that but so it's a cath yeah and she can talk more about that I mean um but I mean I know the the guys that actually built the monument have submitted it to like a headstone award thing and they've won you know like the national award and so no we didn't actually get credit sometimes so so that's kind of just frustrating for us living way over here so actually I have a question for Crystal uh and maybe you could elaborate on that Crystal what he said but um I'm really curious about um your research um on St Louis and how difficult it was for them to communicate I think that's important to talk about because when you read that letter that was supposedly translated from the nesters who were there the delegates um you know it to me I don't understand how they could have possibly have said what's in that letter based upon what what little they could communicate on and I guess the other thing that really bothers me is that and I think what may have occurred this is just me um thinking that uh because one of them or two of them had a Catholic right when they P when they died and of course you would be thankful for someone helping you as you're in that sacred time of leaving Earth and um you know he they may have just you know assumed you know he was he could have been saying yeah our people need help you know they're they're being murdered or whatever and and the the Catholic priest may have you know actually started that I don't know I but if you could talk about those two things thank the letter are you do you mean the one that either rabbit skin leggings in her horns that is why disputed for exactly the reasons that you said nobody there spoke in his purse so if it actually occurred and actually most of them spoke French that wrote it down so for it to get to English it would have had to gone from sign to French to English whoever wrote it down however interpretation so as far as the historical field um it's a nice Nifty little thing but it's not really given a lot of credit as being something that can be proven to have happened a lot of people people have said they heard this happened but as far as those who actually have come forward and said yes we witnessed it there really isn't the documentation for that um as far as the Catholic rights go the two men were actually nursed by Clark's wife and um it was a highly Jesuit community so if they hadn't been giving Catholic rights they would have been put in a Popper's grave because there was no other option so for them to have been given that right it was actually a really nice and caring thing for that to have been done assumptions aside it allowed them to be buried at the cathedral which is where downtown St Louis by the arch so if they hadn't been given the rights they would have been in a popper grave for example Chief Pontiac of the Ottawa is buried in a Popper's grave which is now beneath a parking garage across from the old baseball stadium so that could have been the fate of these two had they not been given those rights yes sir on the question on um on religion Alan you were saying that uh two uh people went up to Canada to learn how to speak the white man's language or sign language to be able to communicate with these people was this before the religion came into it uh yeah it and um the the thing that my father would tell me is that we wanted to learn how to read and write and at Red River in Canada was a was a mission that taught how to read and write and of course the Bible came in with that Association as well too so religion is connected in that way but uh and there were three two died at the school and then one survived and he came back and he could read and write his name is Ellis and he became important in a treaty making process in Wala Wala In 1855 because he could read and write and he was a nest purse so but his notes have never been found you know it would be very interesting if we could find his journal or the notes in this treat treaty negotiation In 1855 because none of those notes have ever there were probably three or four four nesters that could read it right at the time of 1855 all right one other question here it's probably a silly question but I don't know did the nesps have horses before Louis and Clark came there I I don't know my history that good and did they those four Chiefs then travel by horse then or did they walk to uh St Louis well my understanding is that yes we had the horse at the time of Louis and Clark and in his journals of Lou and Clark he described horses among the nesp are very colored you know they have a lot of color and they're uh like the English corser very similar very good uh breed horse that the nesp had and uh we uh practiced gelding at the time so we would eliminate of course the stallions that weren't as good as the others so and that's why the herds became very U welldeveloped and we probably got the horse about 1700 you know uh Francis Haynes of he's another historian of nesper History he claims about 1730 but uh because the trade route between a tribe is so fast and and we learned about these things very quickly I on my estimation it wouldn't take more than two decades for the uh horse to come up to the Northern Plains after the Pueblo Revolt of 1680 so it would only taken a couple of decades to get up to the Northern Plains and if we and there's um if you seen a strange animal you never seen before what what kinds of questions would you ask you know what what what good is this animal is it like the dog um can you you know can it can you pack can you ride it and it's such a large animal and of course we would have learned these things if we were in a Spanish country in in uh probably New Mexico or Arizona in that area so we had have learned very quickly that this was a good animal that could you know travel greater distances with us and so uh and that's why I also say U we acquired the horse much earlier than most people estimate because if we travel to to the Southwest we would have found Spanish horses and uh there is um a little story of a ners man he went so far south he seen a little animal he never seen before and he called this little animal pitsco and pitco in this verse means imitator and this animal this little an seen was a monkey so that's how far south we went so that would have been well into Waka and maybe you know that area so we traveled great distances but then when a horse we acquired now there's some travel people say there was even horses way before Columbus that the horse was already here well there was a prehistoric horse here that that's been proven now whether that was a horse that we utilized I don't know but this European horse the soyo the crossed water people brought this animal and the reason why I related to the dog is that when we call the horse we called it s and chco is the dog so he named the horse the first part of the dog's name s too very similar in sound so we just named the horse the short version of the dog so uh uh once we acquired the horse then we traveled all over the place there's a story of an npus man he went to a place called Cincinnati of course that place now is Cincinnati Ohio well I found out Cincinnati is established in 1890 or 1795 so did he go there when it was first for or was it after Luc and Clark I can't prove whether he was there at the time of Louis and Clark or not but I do know that Cincinnati was established in 1795 so he probably traveled some sometime between 1795 and 18202 Cincinnati because he had the horse because the story says that he uh loaded his horses up with packs and he went East he wanted to see where the sun comes up his name is hak sin that's the name of it man I think we're out of time for questions uh would you all be willing to answer questions in the back after the program's over all right and please let's thank our panel and thank you all very much for coming I would like to draw your attention to our program schedule they're out on the sandwich board in the back and also the summer of Peace among the Meo the program these were printed a couple of weeks ago so there are some changes in them for our most upto-date schedule stop by the front desk in the tent right over here to my right and please join us for our next program Silas Whitman is here and he's going to be talking about reflections of the past so join us for that program as well