Tent of Many Voices: 10240303FSB

that church there was a cemetery and uh he made reference uh into C's presentation about religion and I want to talk a little bit uh about uh about religion let me let me kind of give you the background though of some of the some of the things we heard from the speakers today the United States government the doctrine of Discovery had this cover over the shauni tribe even today with the Bia has some kind of cover over this shiny tribe we heard some things about removal about uh about about this dominant Nation putting some some um not not only just a physical removal but but but learning from a different culture coming in there was a period in our history where uh where they would try to take away our language where they would try to take away our religion and to uh replace that with u Christianity religion I know I know there are Christians and I know there that that that we still have the the traditional religions I heard you guys refer to the traditional uh religions can you talk about that panelist for just a minute I know I know several of you participate in the uh traditional uh the traditions of our tribe can you talk a little bit about religion also let me let me say something to the audience too A lot of times in in Indian world uh there are some things that we simply can't talk talking about now in the in the U for lack of better word in the in the in the dominant language you have history books in the Indian World We tend to hand that down orally and then there's sometimes are a to say you know really that's just something we don't talk about and uh you just learn that by by participating in the ceremonies by growing up with the grandfathers and those kind of things within the limitations of what we can talk about uh can either any one of you panelists talk a little bit about the Shaunie religion uh like I said I was raised by my grandmother born in 1870 my dad 1894 and my great-grandmother was born in uh 1843 she lived to be 110 years old so I grew up learning the traditional way uh of religion shy people and so I knew and lived the life that our forefathers lived as far as their relationship with a Creator and the relationship with each other uh through the Creator and um I became a Christian several years ago and I had a problem with live trying to live in both worlds I thought one contradict the other but we went into a uh Bible study session with a guy named Dan marker who taught us the Tabernacle of the Old Testament the Tabernacle uh many of you know it was a tent or facility uh that moved with millions of people and then within this tent there was uh God lived in in this tent you can speak to God it's a holy place and they used incense they used Cedar they used uh much like our people my people us Cedar to uh purify themselves in in in religious ways and uh the study of the Tabernacle help me to realize the parallelity of our traditional ways and uh the Old Testament ways so I felt comfortable living in both worlds and uh it's been a blessing for me to be able to do that because I always felt guilty when I went to church of my traditional ways I was forsaken them and then vice versa when I went to the traditional ways felt like I betraying my Christian ways but uh there's are bread dances I can elaborate a little bit on it uh we call it a dance it's it's not really a celebration fun time it's our connection time with our creator we have one in the spring and one in the fall we offer we put without offerings much as it did in the Old Testament offering to our creator and we do the same thing and uh like I said we do one in the spring asking for a good growing season or a good summer to come and we have one in the spring thanking him for what he has provided for us through this summer and uh there's the 12 songs and the 12 disciples of the Bible and again the parallelity of both made my wife and I comfortable in living in both worlds so we can go and do our tradition ways and we can do our church ways and are comfortable with okay the rest of speakers have anything to add on religion well the only thing I would say is uh I was not raised traditionally my grandfather was the last one in our family that was raised around the tribal religion and ceremony and language as a matter of fact my father U who was born on his father's in enlightment in a one room house on a dirt floor went on uh to graduate from U's law school was a district attorney was a state representative and state senator and practice law for 52 years in oklah and when the ceremonial Elders approached me uh to run for the Cheroke Tribal Council because of our effort to try to be recognized separately again uh at that time uh our tribal historian Vic dhy named me and I became uh involved with the tribal ceremonies and but I'll have to tell you that that to be involved meant that uh for the last 15 years I have not missed one of of our trib's ceremonial uh dances uh and out of that 15 years uh I've only been asked to dance uh on two occasions out of 15 years and before you're completely accepted into the ceremon it takes uh years and years of commitment and a lot of of the the uh ceremonial Elders are people that are committ commed to uh the tribes uh ceremony and religion first I mean it comes before job and before family and and and I also must say that the the majority of the ceremonial Elders at White o which is which really the White Oak ceremonial grounds is is a inner tribal because there's as many Eastern shaes that that uh practice their religion and their ceremonies there as there are Loyals although it's was was uh within the Loyals uh the place where the Loyals were settled there at wi hope but there still is some conflict in that group between whether you can accept Christianity and and uh and be pure and but I the majority of people that that participate are Christians but there are still a few holdouts that believe that that that they cannot be Christians and still still honor their ceremonies but I do want to iterate that it it takes a tremendous commitment that most young people and most assimilated people like I was uh uh uh have a hard time making and and uh therefore it's a big job uh uh for our tribe to to get young people interested in in the commitment and I mean the commitment which means no matter what it is when it's time to go you have to drop everything you be there questions from the audience sir yeah I wanted to ask a couple of questions about the the bicentennial and the signature event uh first for this event um you're being brought back to a place that you were expelled from and there there's got to be some kind of mixed feelings about that and second the official sponsor of this is a group called The U Ohio remnant of the Sha and I was wondering how this connected with your major tribal structure the the first question was what sir was it was about coming back from to to the area you've been expelled from for the the purpose of the signature event okay panelist first question coming back home to a place that was uh where our forefathers once roamed U I don't have any uh qus about it I guess uh been so long ago that my uh relatives lived here so uh you know it's been hundred of years uh since they lived here so um I don't feel any animosity whatsoever towards uh this area where the people had mov us cuz uh I am thankful that it was America instead of maybe Russia or some other and I'm proud to be an American I'm proud to be a member of the shy ation and I'm proud of me absente me so I have no no qus about coming back to this area I don't have any resentment in my heart Ken makes an excellent point there that uh around the world the United States is looked at as the model of how to handle your indigenous people now we study our own history and think it was atrocious but Canada New Zealand and Australia look to our case law some of the thing you know Johnson B Macintosh the doctor Discovery was just decided in Australia about 10 years ago in the Mao case so they you know never mind what our history was but the rest of the world when Indians are still being killed in Brazil right now and in Ecuador and the mining companies that are just displacing these people I think those natives wish that they were being treated like the ones were here but yes what a history we have as far as me coming here well I've lived in Oregon my entire life my mom's entire family moved to the West Coast to work in the shipyards during World War II and so even Oklahoma is not home to me I've been there to our power I think about three times but we've seen the cemetery where the family is we've seen the house where my mom was born and and that sort of thing but uh I just like to add another state to the list of states I've ever been to so now the Indiana Kentucky so I have no animosity at all well the only thing I would say is and Bob and I talked about this a little bit earlier uh me history tells us uh certain things about Jefferson and about his plans for Indian tribes uh but part of History tells us that he was compassionate towards the Indians and he cared about Indians and he and he had opinions about slavery and various other things about about how human being should be treated uh but at the same time uh he was was the impetus for the whole idea of moving the tribes uh west of the Mississippi and then finally uh towards Extinction which which I mean some people think it means extinction of the Indians but I think it was more extinguishing their way of life and assimilating them where there were no different from Europeans uh which uh people now realize is impossible it pretty well happened but the tribes were really fairly resilient uh and are really finding a way to live in both worlds and even give ways to their young people to recapture those parts they've lost uh but I mean I don't think modern day uh Shaun have a lot of animosity about past as a matter of fact there is a strong tradition of patriotism among Indian people and the service in the US military is a really a badge uh of of Honor uh because almost all power ws and Indian Ceremonies start by honoring the veterans in the tribe and gour dancing societies uh U all over the country that are made up of of veterans and and uh and so Indians are are even more patriotic than than I would say the average American and it has has a higher percentage per capita of people who serve in the military and make the military's career so so as far as animosity towards Americans I don't believe exist but one thing that I always like to point out now there was a Divergence even among shaes as we talked today there were very traditional uh conservative shaunese that at the first encroachment of white fed would move on uh and those uh groups uh never wanted their land to be allotted they wanted to own it in severalty as one whole tribe uh and live the way they lived uh and at the same time there were shaes uh who got involved in Commerce through trading and trapping and various other things with Europeans and while they didn't become assimilated they still practiced their language and their culture and religion they still were involved in Commerce and and with other groups and some of them became very successful with that but in the end both suffered the same fate uh so when people tell you that the reason why the Indians have had to be moved West and finally extinguished because they weren't using the land to its highest and best use I mean I submit to you that the Indians actually brought civilization to every place they went and it became less stable and less civilized in the period right after Indians were removed and settlers from d uh and that was I mean I'll go back to uh the Cherokees I served from the Cherokee Council and actually in in North Eastern Oklahoma in the Cherokee Nation they had a banking system a court system law enforcement uh businesses and commerce uh and women had as many rights for education and opportunities as men they were far beyond the time of of of the settlers that that came in there uh and after statehood uh the Cherokee Nation went from a very stable government uh that took care of everybody uh to to chaos and it took a decade or more before Northeastern Oklahoma was as stable under rule as it was under CH NAIA and I think there are similar stories uh almost every place that shaes went why they were very traditional shaes there also were shaes that were very successful in Bridging the Gap but nevertheless they suffered the same fate they lost their land and remov you know Greg talked about uh uh these two world things and I I understand there's a pwell here in town and if you go to that pwell I don't know who it is or who sponsoring on uh the first song as as all these uh Indian dancers come in it's called a grand entry song but the following three songs uh the second song that you hear singing It's called a veteran song like Greg said IND the people very proud of that of that Heritage and being a part of America and fighting uh the next the next song is called a memorial song that not only remembers all the soldiers who have fallen but all the people uh that have gone before us and then the third song is sometimes called a victory song but it's to retire the colors so there's that one part of being a part of America now before this poow ever started uh in all probability early this morning or something the poow committee went out there with cedar or something and bless the ground no Fanfare no people around no press around know and and as they as they smoked the grounds as we said and and said their prayers and hoping for a great powerwell I mean an example of there of living in today's world and being proud of America and and also keeping our traditional not telling anybody what we're doing not just going out and doing it early in the morning to bless those grounds sir I haven't forgot your second question but it looked like you had a followup question that first one is that cor it's not really a followup question okay okay why don't uh because we had two questions I'm not going to question why don't you go ahead and ask a question then then I'll answer that question go ahead sir oh well this is for Mr D okay I've just I've admired your ancestor Tuma so much for a long time I just wonder if you grew up with oral tradition stories about him still preserved within the family or do you have a favorite biography of him I've got what I the biography I've got is through over the man but uh I can remember my my grandmother and grandfather and them talking about the great Chief Tuma and his role especially my great-grandmother course she was born in 1843 so some of her stories would were fairly fresh uh cuz he died in 1813 so I'm sure her parents related many stories to her and I heard many stories about the C from her okay let me address let me go ahead and address his his question he had he had talked about another faction of the Shaun called The Remnant band of of Ohio and uh this is a group of Shaun who uh who who remained at Shaun or whatever they're not ferally recognized uh I think I think everybody up here was ferally recognized let me just say something about ferally recognized and that sort of thing one of the other beautiful people and I met many this morning one of the other Beautiful People this morning I met was morning glory is that such morning morning LK morning LK and and morning LK there's no doubt in her heart she's ined and from from all of our and she was talking about how she's she's having having some difficulty right now getting on the road you know when when this country was again when this country was being born and moved uh there was a gathering of soldiers somewhere and you had to come and register uh to to to be on the roads and in that day and time I mean uh it it's were some people Indian people were looked down upon considered lazy considered drunkards considered whatever back in those times and some people did not choose to be on that roow now in 2003 2004 we have these people called federally recognized for people that signed up for that that role that doesn't mean that that there isn't many brothers and sisters who who aren't indan they're not they're not in they're IND in their heart and we certainly consider them inding uh but this panel here is a is a federally recognized panel and I know I know the shaes the shauni nation just become ferally recognized I had the opportunity to meet the remnants yesterday I went down to uh the uh to the tent uh they treated me great we saw them again at dinner at night uh our brothers and sisters and and I guess the question is how how we feel about that you know they're they're great people I I love I I consider my brothers and sisters and this particular panel is a Fally recognized shauny people in Oklahoma M you have a question yes it has a lot to do with the re also um my name is Robin bone I'm sist wton Dakota sou of South northeast corner of South Dakota I've lived here in Kentucky for 5 years and I run a Native American organization our our program tries to help Native Americans who move off the reservation come to the urban areas um assimilate into this environment but we also try to keep our culture and we keep our traditions and a lot of times we have a society of Sund dancers or we have we have these people that we go home and we take part in our ceremonies and we know our songs and our Traditions but we have also another organization that we that we deal with that we have problems with and we don't have shaie in our area you we have a lot of people that claim chokee Heritage we very you know and that we know of I don't know the Sha shaie people and their Traditions but the remnants to I have been asked are these people are they what they doing is this original shaie you know the women have um rattles and they shake the rattles behind the drums and sing with them in and I believe it's almost the vocables and I know they don't you don't know the language or whatever I know this the power that goes on I know those people I worked with those people I know that they are also remnants or descendants and that they are not familiar and and you may not hear all three songs that were talking about and they have it in their heart but there's something about carrying on the our traditional ways too you know I know that there is a separation between ferally recognized or people of blood and and people of descended here in the Kentucky Ohio Indiana area I I know this because I've dealt with them I've lived with them but what he's asking is if we go and we watch what they're doing are we seeing authentic are we seeing something from the shaie people that are are they um are they um following traditional traditional ways of your people or have you seen them you I don't know that any of us has that information no I I can say uh there are people from our tribe that have come to Ohio and have interacted with them and and I would only say that there's a lot of hesitance because and and Ken mentioned it I mean there are things that Shaun are only supposed to tell as Shaun and my experience has been they're very careful even about which Shaun e they share some of those things for and so among the traditional ceremonial Community there's a lot of hesitation about uh people that perform ceremonies and present themselves as as as doing it because first of all as Kent mentioned I mean the majority of of the things are not for public I mean they're not written about they're not published and so the place for you to find out is from another shaune uh and that's when you're ready to find those things out when you're when they believe you're prepared to know those things and there is some question in in the Indian communities in Oklahoma how these people arrived at that and and there's a belief too that that there you have individual Indians but there is a relationship between the tribe and the Indian and if you aren't governed by the tribe if you aren't a part of that tribal Community uh that practices that language and culture and religion uh then they might not be able to be separated some people feel like to separate those two uh is hard to do and it goes back to the fact that that the I know there are the definition of an Indian even by the federal government there are more than one definition of an Indian but but these federally recognized tribes in Oklahoma are lineal Heirs of the Shaun and a lot of it is taken from from meticulous records that was were kept by the government in order to keep track of us uh but but everybody that's a member of our fa recognized tribes have been able to prove that and um if I know some I mean some people uh do have shauny blood that we'll never be able to prove it but Ken and I are both on the enrollment Committees of our tribe and there are people that we have to turn away that we feel in our hearts may be shauny but but the the tribe requires that we make everyone prove it and not make ex exceptions and so there's uh you know uh we can't decide who is or isn't an Indian this isn't not with blood this is this is with with ceremonies I was given a card that said and I know better than this this I am a medicine man this is my name you need medic you know I know that my among my people if you're a medicine man Medicine Man are stay on the reservation you go to him he doesn't go out and make house calls as you know unless you know under certain circumstances but in this um situ I talked with man Wilma mankiller who said if they're Cherokee medicine people they they usually speak their language they usually um in Oklahoma the people know you know they're well known by the Cherokee people and and and so with Shan is in our in our amongst our people our our medicine people speak the language they they live amongst the people and that you know is that same with the shiny people let me say this because we got three minutes to clear out of here we want to talk to this question first off I honor you for your work because there's most of our tribal members are not in our reservations they come to urban areas and you guys you know your jobs like you take care of guys I can't tell you how much we appreciate you coming here inviting us treating us with the hospitality that you have and I turn this back over to our sponsor Amy and we thank you for allowing to come to tell our story thank you in closing I just want to say thank you I I can't thank enough our shaie Representatives who are here today to share the shaie perspective and again we're getting into some questions where we we don't have enough time in two hours to answer all these questions that people have and what we saw today it's it's a a one aspect of shaie history and culture and we could spend days talking about only the shauni and to think of all the tribes that we have along the trail and the incredible stories and all the different aspects of the cultures that we are learning about from now until 2006 and this Bicentennial has just begun this is only the second signature event we have 13 more to learn about all the tribes that Lewis and Clark encountered from here all the way out to the West Coast and again to remind you that most of those tribes were on the other side of the Continental Divide but the stories are incredible and